VectorStudios wrote:

julesf wrote: Hi Stuart, That sounds like a cool idea Where you hoping to record multitrack and mix down later (Perhaps adding overdubs) or just record from number of mic's and di's real time to a stereo pair? Jules. The origional idea was just to record realtime, but we're hoping to record multi track eventually. Presumably we'd need to get a new mixer that records? For the time being we just record a practice song to get levels, and if a song come s out with a guitar too low, just up the fader and do it again. How much would a decent multitrack be? I cant see any way of using the behringer lol.

Hi stuart I will address all methods of recording that you could explore

There are actually three possibilities here.

1. Record with a stereo pair placed in the sweetest spot in the room.

2. Mic up individual amp,s drums, vocals etc and get a stereo mix of the group recorded.

3. mic up as above but take the individual channels to a multitrack recorder for mixing down and post production later.

And yes you can use the MX2442a for all three methods

I will post explanations of each method over a period of time as I am going to work in my Spanish studio on Sunday for a week. This will give the oppertunity for others to add comments and their own personal experiances, tips, tricks, and kit suggestions.

We will start wirh Method 1.

1.This method is cheap and easy. You will need a couple of reasonable quality cardioid mic's that have a usable frequency response and can handle reasonable sounds pressure levels. Many mics dynamic or condenser would be suitable for this purpose. If you let me know your budget for mic's then I could make some suggestions, or maybe others reading this post could help with suggestions or ther personal experiences.

You will need a recorder, (But you new that already didn't you ) This could be a PC or lap top, MAC, or a stand alone stereo recorder in any format, DAT, Minidisc, CD, Tape, Hard drive you name it, but I would avoid audio cassette.

Method: get the band to play and walk around the room listening for the sweet spot (The nicest sounding area's) to chosse for mic placement, make adjustements to amps and PA to get the required balance. Place a mic in the sweet spot each side of the room, quite high and angled down slightly. Think of the microphone as a lense, the further away the larger the area of capture will be, as you move in towards the source a more condensed area will be focused upon. Often drums are louder so consider this and maybe move the amps to the front or isolate the drums a bit with screens or by distance.
The key here is to experiment and learn as you go. Use to channels on the MX2442a as preamps and take the output directly from the insert point of each channel to your recorder left and right input. By using the insert point you will be avoiding using the perts of the console that you dont need and thus lowering the noise floor. Monitor in another room on phones or monitors, these could be Hi Fi monitors and an amp to cut cost.

Pros: Well the big plus is cost, this is a cheap way of getting into audio recording it's fun and good recordings can be made in this way.

Cons:No post control over the entire mix what you get is what you get, Room ambiance plays an important part in the quality and feel of the overall result this is especialy so with drums, drums can sound thrashy in the wrong ambiance but experiance can help to resolve some of these issues and a dead room can work wonders. The recordings always sound live (now theres a suprise )

Ok later I will post method two. Hope that helps.

Errors and ommissions (and spelling mistakes) Accepted

Cheers,

Jules

Thanks

Eagerly awaiting parts 2 and 3

VectorStudios wrote:

Hi jules. Well, already have a Behringer Eurodesk MX2442A, and some basic PC equipment, But all I was raelly doing it for was to record Demo tracks for bands in the area at rock bottom prices. The idea is to be mobile so hard and rugged is better in this case rather than noiseless. With being demo tracks and seeing as our budget was origionally ony £1000 we only currently charge £10 for the first hour, £5 for every hour after that. It was only really a hobby to tell you the truth, as band members me and the guitarist looked to give really really cheap recording to other people. I'm not looking for commertial quality Stuart For more information go to vectorstudios.here.ws (new domain pending)

Jeez, I've invested $10,000USD in my DAW, Mics, and Monitors alone and the last 6 years of practice and learning and giving away my services, and charge $10USD/Hrly in studio and $15USD/On site.
I'm glad too see I could still be considered "Cheap as Hell"


I used to run just an Rode NT2 (Vocals, Main drums, Guitars, ect, ect) and a SM58 (Kick) thru the $70USD Beringer 4 channel into a BOSS BR-8 and call it a day.

ANd people still to this day refuse to believe I used just those 4 pieces of gear to do the stuff i did. <$1200USD

And I'm not even that good! Honest!

My opinion is that first you should absolutely ignore replies from those 2 jerks Rhone Ranger & Blue Bear. They both have a bug up their butts about Phonic for some reason and constantly diss any prodct the company makes without even knowing what the gear is like. They wouldn't know a decent piece of gear if it fell on them and if you listen to them, you're in peril of becoming as snobby & brain dead as they are.

The Phonic PCL3200 is cool, it is inexpensive works great and has a 3 year warranty in case it ever goes down. What more could you want for the money?

Actually - I think gtrtrks is a Phonic salesguy, so his opinion on Phonic stuff may be considerably biased.

Could we get a Behringer rep up here too, please? Maybe a Rolls guy as well - then we can have all the low-end gear bases covered.....
_________________
Bruce Valeriani - Mix Engineer

VectorStudios wrote:

Thanks Eagerly awaiting parts 2 and 3

OK, In order to help Vectorstudios I attempted to write three brief solutions to his recording requirements using equipment that he already owns just adding additional items to suit his budget. These were intended to be fairly brief and I had hoped that it would encourage other readers to also post suggestions or fill in any gaps that I may have missed. The first post suggested recording to a stereo recorder using a stereo pair. Next we can look at adding more detail and fattening the sound by close micing and spot micing in addition to the stereo pair, or instead of the stereo pair.

2. Mic up individual amp,s drums, vocals etc and get a stereo mix of the group recorded.

Ok here we need to close mic each guitar amp in the band. again due to budget use a resonable quality dynamic mic placed close to the speaker of the amp. An SM57 is a good choice here but the cheaper PG57 or another budget dynamic mic should be fine. Obviously if the mic is not reasonable quality or is just the wrong mic for the job then the sound captured will not be good. It is important that the mic can handle the Sound pressure level (SPL) coming from the amp otherwise horibble distortion may result. Moving the mic at different positions on the speaker cone and at different distances from the cone will make a huge difference to the sound captured. The key here is to experiment while monitoring in a remote room (Will need a helper for this) even try micing the rear of the cabinet if it is of the usual open back design. The drums can have just a stereo pair placed over them but for a tighter sound close mic each drum. It is possible to place one mic between the High and Mid Tom if you are short of channels or mics, but generally the rule is, if you mic one, then mic all. The overhead stereo pair should be condenser mic's as they will pick up the cymbals better as they have an extended frequency range over dynamics. The high hat can be mic'ed with a condenser also. It is good to mic the snare and batter of the snare drum (top and bottom head) as this will allow the crisp snare sound to come over, but it is necessary to invert the phase (swap over the hot and cold signal) on one mic to prevent phase cancellation which will take the punch and snap out of the snare. Some consoles have a switch on the channel strip for this purpose. For a lesson on micing kits try

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb03/articles/drummiking.asp?session=43bd08c9b3a387969045286fdd2be627

The bass can be DI'd this involves using a DI box which takes the unbalanced signal from the bass Guitar and converts it to a signal that is balanced and matched in both signal level and impediance so as it matches a balannced mic input on the console. You may also mic the bass cabinet if required with a large diaphram dynamic or condenser mic. Either signal may be used or a mix of both DI box and cabinet signal. Vocals again go straight to the console.

Another consideration is foldback. A method for the vocalist and other band musicians to heer each other. Headphones are the best solution as they allow the musicians and vocalist to hear good detail but prevent the vocal bleeding over the large array of mics. For this method of recording where seperation is not such a key issue a small PA could be used with the vocals kept as low as possible. However a heaphone foldback set up would be much better. For this I use a Behringer power play head phone distribution amp which allows for 4 outputs. It is possible to connect two headphones to each channel allowing for eight sets to be used. Beyer DT100 headphones are the industry standard but at nearly £90.00 a set it gets a bit pricey . The Behringer HPS300 studio phones work really well and cost just £13.00 a set at a discount outlet. Connect aux 1 output from your console to the Poer Play headphone amp and connect the phones to the amp. You will need some long extension leads for this. Now when you turn up the Aux 1 control on any channell strip on the console it will send the signal of that strip to the foldback mix and the musicians will be able to have a seperate monitor mix from the recording. Make sure that the master aux 1 send is turned up on the console. Make sure the headphone amp is not too loud as this will distort and either burn out the phones or the listeners ears Take the master left and right out from the console to your stereo recorder, Set the gains, Eq, pans, and levels for each channel by getting the musicians to play one at a time (Includes each drum). Then check the overall mix carefully as you will not be able to change this post record. Make final adjustments to mic placement, gain,Eq, level, pan,foldback mix etc. Run a take and let the band assess it and make suggestions as to what they may like changed. Finaly run the takes.

Pros and Cons.

Pros:
Better control over the final mix and sound.
Get a tighter puchier drum sound
Room quality not quite so important with close micing technique
More likely to achieve a more commercial qulity sound if band can cut it.
Saves £1000.00 for a multitrack recorder.

Cons:

Still cant post mix the tracks
Cant produce overdubs (Unless quality losing SOS method used)
Cant drop in takes
Limited possibilities for processing individual signals.

This method could be used a stepping stone towards a full multitracking
platform.

I have tried to give a brief guide to recording on a budget using a multiple
close micing technique, of course it is difficult in a short article like this, so as always I encourage all to enhance this post with their BUDGET equipment suggestions and to correct or enhance the techniques that I have described.

Errors and ommissions, speeling mistakes accepted

Jules Freeman (Tea and Coffee Maker) Ourgate Studios.

gtrtrks wrote:

My opinion is that first you should absolutely ignore replies from those 2 jerks Rhone Ranger & Blue Bear. They both have a bug up their butts about Phonic for some reason and constantly diss any prodct the company makes without even knowing what the gear is like.

Well, perhaps I could talk my local Radio Shack sales clerk and Walmart electronics guy into posting here about the great quality stuff they have for cheap too.

Man, you are a douche! I have told you many times why I hate phonic, I have tried a few of their products on several occasions, and disliked everyone of them.

You can place a turd in a nice looking case, maybe even plate it in gold, sell it for a cheap price and some dumbasses are sure to buy it because it is cheap and looks nice.. but inside it is still shit. Understand my point there jerky?

Quote:

Well, perhaps I could talk my local Radio Shack sales clerk and Walmart electronics guy into posting here about the great quality stuff they have for cheap too. Man, you are a douche! I have told you many times why I hate phonic, I have tried a few of their products on several occasions, and disliked everyone of them. You can place a turd in a nice looking case, maybe even plate it in gold, sell it for a cheap price and some dumbasses are sure to buy it because it is cheap and looks nice.. but inside it is still shit. Understand my point there jerky?

First of all may I touch upon why I think we are all involved in this posting. I see it as a place to learn, exchange ideas, meet new liked minded friends who are mad on audio. I feel that your comments are unecessarily rude and aggressive but more than this they are simply unhelpful. You dont like Phonic products, that's fine, so state which products you have used and what you found to be unacceptible considering the low budget price so other members can get a review. There is no need for rudeness or name calling.

This posting started with a guy who wanted some help to start a budget recording set up to record local bands who otherwise would not have the chance of making a recording due to funding. He accepted that his budget was low and therefore did not expect "commercial quality sound". He was obviously keen on getting his hands wet with audio! My aim was to try and offer some solutions that could get him started. If I had said well man unless you can buy a bunch of U87's and an SSL dont even bother, then that would not be positive nor helpful. Fact is he can produce very high quality sound, probably better than he thinks with budget equipment. I have to remember where I started many years ago and how hard I had to work to get any sort of quality with the basic equipment that I had, but man did I learn a lot. I could now play you examples of my work and you would be so supprised with the equipment that was used. Yes I do now have some pretty expensive kit, but I still say that the kit is not everything. I draw your attention to this posting:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3089

Although the identity of the mic's have been posted, I challenge you to honestly post your results, I would like to see them there. Come on man, it should be easy to tell the differance between a $100 dollar mic and a $3500 dollar mic right! Well how come so many audio engineers could not

So if you have the money go and buy all the high end gear for your set up, but if you are on a budget then just go buy some reasonable quality kit no specific make, learn with it and have fun.

Me, I would rather spend the extra on a sound engineering course, and get qualified. I did that with Audiocourses and guess what, all of my existing studio equipment started to sound a whole lot better. Now aint that strange

Finally, if you dont have anything interesting or helpful to post, then please, just dont post. Show some respect man.

Thanks.

Jules. (P.S. I dont do short)

I agree this is a great place, if you understood a little history between GrtTrks and I, and BlueBear too, you would understand a little more of my agression toward him.

Everytime someone asks anything, he peddles his low end, still overpriced stuff. That is my problem, then he starts doing his crap over and over and over.

Jules, I appreciate the effort, but please note I was quoting him, and the post was directed at specifically him. Please do a little research before you start accusing and pointing fingers..

Unless you too are a phonic rep, and are in cahoots together with ShtTrks...

RhoneRanger wrote:

I agree this is a great place, if you understood a little history between GrtTrks and I, and BlueBear too, you would understand a little more of my agression toward him.

You know why I come Here? i'll tell you, because I never forget where I started. I am near on 50 years old, I started playing in bands and recording at 15 years old. I took some of my work to a studio who was looking for songs, the guy treated me like a piece of dirt and dissed me. I figured the only differance between him and me and the reason he could do that was because he had a studio and I didn't. So I built a studio (Two in fact now) and I vowed that I would never treat anyone who came to my studio(s) the way that that guy treated me.

See my posts, How long do you think that it takes to write that stuff? But you think that I should spend my time researching the net regarding your petty squabbles. I come here to offer help to people who want to get started in audio, to offer back some of the knowledge that I have gained
Thats it!.

I do not represent any company nor do I endorse any equipment. I may suggest what has worked for me given the budget. Notice How in all of my posts I have not mentioned anything about compressors at all, although Vector was asking for comments on the phonic dynamic processor, I did not pass comment, why? I have never used one, so how could I say what it was like. Ask me what I would choose for the same budget I would say Behringer Composer Pro MDX 2600, why? They work just fine and sound great for £70.00 The DI box is great too, not the stereo one that's a bit noisy, but the bigger mono one is great. (cant remember the model No)

So guy's, I'll leave you to your squabbles as I have an editing session to complete before the morning.

Think about what I have said, take it or leave it, but petty squabbles are for kids (and marriages). Use this forum to meet new friends, help or be helped. This is the place for discussion, not agression!

Thank you.

Jules.

Quote:

You know why I come Here? i'll tell you, because I never forget where I started. I am near on 50 years old, I started playing in bands and recording at 15 years old. I took some of my work to a studio who was looking for songs, the guy treated me like a piece of dirt and dissed me. I figured the only differance between him and me and the reason he could do that was because he had a studio and I didn't. So I built a studio (Two in fact now) and I vowed that I would never treat anyone who came to my studio(s) the way that that guy treated me.

For this I relate to and comend you good sir.

I agree with you Jules... I do not have a fancy studio, I do not care what people have for a studio, I do not care if people can not afford the best, hell, I can't....

See, one thing I try to do is based on my limited experience, is help people move in the right direction. If someone only has a few hundred to spend on a board, I would recommend the Yamahas for example... and steer people away from Phonic.

I am not the all knowing god of music, but I hate it when someone tries to peddle off crappy gear claiming it is excellent over and over and over again.. copy paste style even.. That is my problem, and nothing more.

Here what you are saying Rhone.

I guess sometimes we lose site of what it is all about, the music We have to ask ourselves whether the productions we are making sound credible. If my client takes the product out of the studio and plays it to his friends and fellow musicians are they going to say wow that is a cool mix. Or are they going to say man that sucks. If they say they like the sound and mix then more clients will want to come to the studio You have to ask yourself that question. And if the answer is the mixes could sound better, then you need to found out why. Could be equipment, or could be technique. But each time you realise that it could be better and you do something about it, you move forward. That is why I am always looking for that little extra, that way I figure I can keep moving forwards.

Jules.

Right, now that the bickering has subsided....

Thanks for your reply julesf, Would really like to hear about method 3, as it sounds the most useful...

Vectorstudios