I’m writing this thread based on a student group project to film and record a live band for a 5.1 DVD release. The group is an 8 piece funk band who will perform two gigs in as many nights, with each set lasting just over one hour. Our plan is to mix the band in front of a live audience while simultaneously recording a split mix onto hard disk in an external control room. I will do my best to document the entire process from set up, live mix, recording, surround mix, vision mix, master and DVD author, giving note to our methods and any issues that rise up and bite us on the ar...

Back soon.

P.S. Anyone got any good ideas, suggestions, things to look out for, etc, any input would be gold.

Ok, here is the system :

FOH:
4 x Nexo Alpha E Mid/Hi Cabs
4 x Nexo Alpha E B1-18 Cabs
1 x Camco Amp Rack

FOH Desk:
1 x Allen & Heath GL4000 48ch. Console

Drive:
2 x XTA GQ600 Stereo 31 Band EQ
1 x dbx 160SL Stereo Compressor
1 x CD player

FX:
1 x Lexicon PCM 91
1 x TC Electronics M1 XL
1 x TC Electronics D2
2 x Yamaha SPX 990

FOH Inserts:
4 x Drawmer DS 201 Stereo Gates
8 x dbx 160A Mono Compressors
4 x BSS DPR402 Stereo Compressor/De-esser/Limiters

Monitors:
10 Nexo PS 15 wedges
4 x Camco Vortex 6 Amps and Processors

Monitors Desk:
1 x Allen & Heath GL2200 24ch. Console

Monitor Inserts:
4 x Klark Technik Stereo 31 Band EQs
1 x Drawmer 6-Pack Gated Compressors

Control Room (Record):
Midas Venice 320 console
Drawmer 6-Pack Gated Compressors
Krk RP6 monitors
Main set up –
Pro Tools HD3, 1 x sync I/O, 2 x 192s
Mac G5
Back up –
Digi 002
Mac G5

As a student project, the entire event was put together using our organisation and funds we raised through gaining sponsorship, donations and borrowed gear from school as well as various other generous parties.

The next post will cover mics, input channel list, record set up and the room. When we finish recording, after today, I will do an overview of the recording and outline any issues and the solutions we came up with as we plan for the mix.

Anyone else done this sort of thing (recorded live for 5.1) before?

Last edited by tonytones on Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total

Here are the inputs, mics and basic signal flow.

Channel-----Instr.------Microphone------------ Inputs from Stage
1----------- Kik 1------- Beyer MD 88----------- FOH, Mons & Rec
2----------- Kik 2------- Shure Beta 91--------- Rec only
3----------- Snr top---- Beta 57-----------------FOH, Mons & Rec
4----------- Snr bot---- Sm 57-------------------Rec only
5----------- Hats------- AKG 451----------------FOH, Mons & Rec
6----------- T 1-------- Shure Beta 98----------FOH, Mons & Rec
7----------- T 2-------- Shure Beta 98----------FOH, Mons & Rec
8----------- O/H L------ AKG 451----------------FOH, Mons & Rec
9----------- O/H R----- AKG 451----------------FOH, Mons & Rec
10--------- Bass Mic--- Beyer MD 88------------Rec only
11--------- Bass DI---- BSS DI------------------FOH, Mons & Rec
12--------- Keys L----- BSS DI------------------FOH, Mons & Rec
13--------- Keys R----- BSS DI------------------FOH, Mons & Rec
14--------- Gtr Mic----- Senn e609--------------FOH, Mons & Rec
15--------- Gtr DI------ BSS DI------------------Rec only
16--------- Horn------- AKG C418---------------FOH, Mons & Rec
17--------- Sax-------- AKG C418---------------FOH, Mons & Rec
18--------- Lead Vox-- Shure Beta 58----------FOH, Mons & Rec
19--------- B Vox------ Shure Beta 58----------FOH, Mons & Rec
20--------- B Vox------ Shure Beta 58----------FOH, Mons & Rec
21--------- Room FrL-- Senn ME67--------------Rec only
22--------- Room FrR--Senn ME67--------------Rec only
23--------- Room RL---Senn ME67--------------Rec only
24--------- Room RR---Senn ME67--------------Rec only

For this set up we needed three splits: Record, Monitors and FOH.

With 24 channel inputs from stage, 16 of these were sent to an AN16 active splitter and the other 8 to a multicore for the Record Room. (See table above).

From the AN16, the first of the 16 channel splits, was sent back to the Record Room multicore, giving a total of 24 channels going to record.

The second 16 channel split from the AN16 fed a 40ch split multicore, taking 16 channels to monitors and 16 to FOH.

Without a block diagram I hope that’s not too confusing!

The Record Set Up:

24s channels into a Midas Venice 320 out into two synched Digi 192’s with record levels set individually. Some careful compression was applied to a few things on the way in; the Bass (both channels), Vocals and the Horns (sax and trombone). With vocals we had to make sure that a little compression with fast attack and release times was going to catch any immediate peaks just enough without taking anything away from the rest of it.
I am not aware of the internal Pro Tools DAE setup for the session as we had help with that. As a group of students controlling this gear we had the supervision and advice of our course leaders (teachers) to call on.

Issues:

Over two nights of recording we had only one crash and that was only upon monitoring playback. We had some distortion from a vocal mic at one point while the MC was on stage. However it wasn’t happening on stage or into the desk, so it didn’t affect the input of Pro Tools so no drama when the band started up. As this happened only briefly after the crash on monitoring, we figured it must have triggered some weirdness at the outputs coming out on playback. We also had a crackling problem with the keyboards on stage, but this was sorted when a course leader grabbed a Roland JV 1080 he had handy. Lucky!
They were the only issues of the entire 2 day recording 

We now move into the mixdown phase in the next week. This will continue over about 2 months as we all share studio time.

If anyone is into mixing for 5.1 and would like to share some knowledge about any element of it , please do. As this is the first time I will be doing this and any info would be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance..

This is building nicely, really looking forward to hearing about the mixing phase, as I'm sure others are too!

Seems you did well so far with hardly any serious glitches.
_________________
Recording Studio Suntans

Thanks AC. Not enough can be said for planning things out first.
We have one mix session arranged before mid year holidays in late June, so I'll post that one up and get back after the break.

Ok, the first mix.
Each student group has 4 – 4 hour sessions to get 3 songs mixed.
The first session last Friday evolved as a tidy up and assessment of each track and a basic play around with the surround matrix inside Pro Tools (plus EQ/compression and overall sound of the drum kit). This was important to get some direction of how we wanted the mix to sound in 3 dimensions.

At this point I’ll add we aren’t mixing to video. So we will mix to what we hear not to video edit points.

The plan we are going with:
Rather than trying to create a mix of tricks, sending instruments all over the place, we will to try to recreate the actual event realistically, concentrating on the sound of the instruments and the space. As an eventual 5.1 DVD release this would involve the end viewer watching and listening to the event as though they were somewhere inside the venue (hopefully!!).
1) The vocal and instrument tracks will be balanced and spread across the front left, centre and front right (FrL – C – FrR) speakers, as they were set up on stage.
2) The forward ambience mic tracks will be delayed minimally and assigned to the FrL and FrR speakers only, giving some slight depth.
3) The rear ambience mic tracks will be delayed a little more with consideration given to reverbs and the room.

In the Pro Tools surround matrix set up, you can allocate how far forward and backward you want these mixes to be. The levels and panning of each speaker adjusts accordingly (sort of).

Surround matrix - Picture a square, looking down at it from above. This represents the basic room. The top of the square is the front of the room and the bottom of the square is the back. This square has a grid inside it and a movable green dot. Moving this green dot determines where your mix or instrument will be inside the room. The green dot can be moved from side to side, giving stereo width, and also backwards and forwards giving depth (3D image).

So, we will keep the direct sound of the vocals and instruments at the top of this square (front of room). The forward ambience mic tracks will be 2/3 of the way up the square and the rear ambience mic tracks will be at the bottom (back of room). The plan is that this will give us some 3D space…

I realize this explanation might be confusing, so for any questions feel free to reply or message.

Back in a couple o’weeks.

Apologies for the delay getting back. The PC I use for the internet has got some problems and its getting fixed, so for now I'm on a public computer. I will post the next session's goings on as soon as it gets fixed.

Hi Tony, thanks for the update.
_________________
Recording Studio Suntans

Back on a new machine. Apologies for the delay.

We approached the session from the view of doing all of the tidy work and individual track assessment first. This included compression, EQ, time alignment and editing out any excess noise where necessary. Levels were mixed roughly as we went and tightened up toward the end. The full on 3-D mix followed after this preliminary mix. All the instruments were left at the top of the surround matrix because this represented where the stage was. They were positioned as they were on the night except for the keyboards panned hard left and right for some nice filling.

To keep it short, I’m going to add only the most relevant info, so here’s the mix:

Kick: Attended individually then grouped with levels adjusted for balance. The MD88 was gated to reduce spill and compressed. EQed to remove the ‘air and boxiness’. The PZM mic. was compressed and EQed. Panned in the centre at the top of the matrix grid, (stage image).

Snare: EQed and compressed through the BF76 on both channels. Set up a send from the bottom snare channel and an aux. return with a Sans Amp to give it a little grit. This channel was gated pre the send, to cut out floor vibrations and spill hitting the mic. The two channels balanced, grouped and panned in centre at the top of the matrix grid.

Toms: Most of the work here was the editing of the toms and some EQ. They were panned at 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock from the audience perspective.

O/H: A low shelf was applied to keep out the muddy bottom end coming through and then boosted 12k to emphasise brilliance in the high end. This worked well on the cymbals. They were balanced, grouped and panned hard left and hard right.

Bass: Time shifted the mic. channel to the DI channel to fix phase alignment. A BF76 compressor over each track at 4.1 ratio with moderate attack and release. Both EQS boosted around 200Hz. Tracks grouped and panned in the centre

Keys: Automated some gain control to even out changes in level and applied just a little compression. Panned to hard left and hard right

Horns: The trumpet (also Trombone) and sax were given some gentle compression, with really quick attack and release just to catch the transients and let go. EQed, grouped and panned to their stage position, mid right and further right. Later on we added a send to both tracks and set up an aux. return with a Mooger-fooger analogue Delay. Horns were automated into the centre (at top of matrix), just for the solos. This was done to second guess what the video editors would be doing.

Guitar: Decided to drop the DI track and go with the mic. channel only. EQed to suit. We set up send from this channel with an aux. return and firstly ran a delay for some thickness. We then added a Mooger-fooger Phaser for a rotating speaker cabinet, uni-vibe kind of sound. The LFO of the phaser was set up in synch with the tempo of each song. The panning was set up with the guitarist’s stage position of mid – far left. Guitar was also automated into the centre image during solos.

Lead Vox: A BF76 was added at a ratio of 4.1 with a medium fast attack and release. A little EQ was applied to accentuate the presence in his voice. This vocal was also sent to the 5.1 long delay and 5.1 long reverb channels. As we couldn’t get the room size we wanted from these two effects, we reduced the reverb and delay times to suit the size of the room. We then set up a send with an aux return with a Tel-Ray delay. The Tel-Ray was set to echo with a fast to medium slap back. The gain for this return was written manually by riding the fader gain like in a live situation. The vocal was panned to the centre

Female Backing Vox: A BF76 was added and some EQ around the 3.5k mark. We set up another send and aux. return with a Mooger-fooger analogue delay set on ‘doubler’. This effect added the perfect 50s – 60s soul, R’n’B style of tone to the girls’ voice. The gain on the return was also automated in real time by the fader.

The room mics: The front mics were panned hard left and right and 3/4 of the way up the sides of the surround matrix. They were automated to lower by 15 – 20 dB when the band started playing and then back up to the level when the band stopped each song. This gave more audience sound between songs and less audience noise during songs. The rear speakers were panned hard left and hard right and to the rear of the surround matrixes.

We had a delay and a reverb aux return set up as you would for a stereo mix, but this time in 5.1. These plug ins were both a long style delay and reverb (minimum room size – 40m), which didn’t suit our purposes as the live room was around 25m long. We compensated this by reducing the reverb time more inline with the natural ambience caught by the rear mics. This was important to keep this mix clean and the room sounding natural. Also we set the diffusion moderate to low in the verb to better mix with the room mics. So the reverb ended up just as a sweetener for the room mics. rather than relying on it as a full blown effect. The delay was set up closely with the reverb mainly to slightly emphasise any early reflections in the room. The voices were the only instruments sent to the room delay and reverb so for the most part we tried to bring the most out of the room mics. which sounded great.

We checked all 5.1 channel levels in the 360° manager by muting the channels in different orders making sure the mix was well balanced for multi and stereo channel playback. The 360° is a multi-channel plug in well worth checking out for a final mix in 5.1. It allows you to mute channels and check out what different mix variations would sound like eg; stereo, mono, quad etc. This was really helpful to hear what a stereo bounce would end up like before actually doing it! One thing to be majorly aware of is how the channels will sum together as the bounces fold down in succession.

The entire 3-song session was bounced down to 6 multiple mono files. These 6 files were then brought back into ‘Tools for a sub mix to prepare for a stereo backup. In this, we panned the left, right and two surround channels to their respective sides and balanced them all with centre and LFE channels. From that, we bounced to stereo.

Most of what we found important in this session was not only each instrument in the mix, but the levels of each speaker to the others, and what they would sound like in a system for playback. For eg; if we’d put all the vocals in the centre speaker and the playback system had a poor quality centre speaker, all vocals would be diminished. The way we had it, if the centre speaker was crap, there was enough panned to the stereo left and right to cover it. One last thing, be aware of the LFE channel, coz the bass sounds great in the studio, but on commercial systems it might be overkill.

5.1 is extremely cool and I recommend it to anyone if you get the chance.

Thanks for reading.