What can be done to minimize the hat bleed into the snare track besides using a super cardoid mic and trying different positions?

I'm recording a friend's son's band using a live kit with no triggers of any kind. Just an acoustic kit and mics.

The recording chain goes like this: A Shure drum mic package going to my Behringer UB-2442FX board using 8 channels - kick, snare, rack tom, two floor toms sharing a mic, and two overhead condensers. Signal comes out of the direct outputs for those 8 channels and goes to the 8 inputs on my M-audio Delta 1010 rack mount breakout box. From there it goes to a PC built for recording only and into separate tracks in Adobe Audition 1.5.

He plays a lot of open hat stuff which results in a wash of it getting into the snare track. This causes problems when mixing - I can't single out the snare and get a good sound from it, because anything I do to bring out the mids or highs in the snare also increases the hat wash, which gets tinny and piercing, especially once you bring the overheads back in. It also causes trouble trying to add any reverb or other effects to the snare because that will also add reverb to the hat wash, which I don't want.

How is this dealt with in the 'big' studios without resorting to triggering?
I've tried 2 or 3 different mics with differenct polar patterns and moved it all around the drum trying to minimize this, but haven't had much luck. Is it al just gated out somehow? I tried that once and it sounded so un-natural that I stopped trying to do it that way.

Thanks,

Mike

Wolfy wrote:

What can be done to minimize the hat bleed into the snare track besides using a super cardoid mic and trying different positions? I'm recording a friend's son's band using a live kit with no triggers of any kind. Just an acoustic kit and mics. The recording chain goes like this: A Shure drum mic package going to my Behringer UB-2442FX board using 8 channels - kick, snare, rack tom, two floor toms sharing a mic, and two overhead condensers. Signal comes out of the direct outputs for those 8 channels and goes to the 8 inputs on my M-audio Delta 1010 rack mount breakout box. From there it goes to a PC built for recording only and into separate tracks in Adobe Audition 1.5. He plays a lot of open hat stuff which results in a wash of it getting into the snare track. This causes problems when mixing - I can't single out the snare and get a good sound from it, because anything I do to bring out the mids or highs in the snare also increases the hat wash, which gets tinny and piercing, especially once you bring the overheads back in. It also causes trouble trying to add any reverb or other effects to the snare because that will also add reverb to the hat wash, which I don't want. How is this dealt with in the 'big' studios without resorting to triggering? I've tried 2 or 3 different mics with differenct polar patterns and moved it all around the drum trying to minimize this, but haven't had much luck. Is it al just gated out somehow? I tried that once and it sounded so un-natural that I stopped trying to do it that way. Thanks, Mike

Welcome to the world of drum recording, something which is probably one of the hardest instruments to record for the reasons you mention.

Couple things here I have to say.

1. always treat recording drums as a "whole" instrument, often if you aim for complete isolation on each drum mic your kit will sound like a bunch of individual sounds stuck back together (not good). I personally utilize a lot of the overheads to obtain this "wholeness".

2. Gating the snare is also an option and you can use a gate that has a couple options, a) a filter so you tune the gate to have it open around the bulk of mids for the snare, thus avoiding the highs of the hats. b) an external key input so it opens when it hears this key, which could be a mic under the snare for example.

3. You could also use a bottom mic on the snare (phase reversed) and try some of that in your mix too.

It is tough and in my sessions the drums have been known to take days.

Keep going and experimenting, think "whole" picture.

Hope that helps
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Recording Studio Suntans

Mic placement and mic selection can help reduce the HH from snares (try a hypercardioid directed away from the hat)....

But along the lines of what AC said, bleed is your friend when it comes to drums.... learn to work with it as opposed to getting mediocre results by fighting it!
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Bruce Valeriani - Mix Engineer

Thanks, guys...I appreciate the help. I should've mentioned that I'm a drummer myself taking a turn at the board - something I've always wanted to do, so I'm teaching myself how to do it.

I'm new to this site obviously, but have a suggestion if it's possible. Since audio is something you need to hear to understand certain things, I was looking all over the internet for recording info that also had examples you could listen to to show what was being discussed. I found nothing like this anywhere.

In other words, for my example, it would be of immense help if a site had a place where someone could post a short .mp3 of a raw acoustic snare channel using pro equipment and techniques, and then an .mp3 of the same thing with some processing on it to show how you can clean it up. Likewise, it would be great if there was a place I could upload a sample of this snare track I'm talking about and have more experienced ears give suggestions.

In addition, it would be great to have a place where a guy could upload (again short to minimize bandwidth and space issues) an mp3 of a problem he's having to let others hear it and offer some help - maybe even fix the problem and re-upload the finished product.

Is there any way for this to happen? Are there already sites that do this and I just haven't found them yet?

Thanks for the help and a great site for information!!!

Mike

Yes these guys do that

http://www.audiocourses.com

But in a course ... which is fair enough really.
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Recording Studio Suntans