Hi,

I've been doing some reviews of idie music at GarageBand.com I think the #1 biggest thing I come across that makes the song non-entertaining or unconvincing is muddy, low quality vocals. Usually the vocals are too quiet. Often they are mushed together or too much reverb added. And sometimes the singer doesn't perform that well. I'm starting to notice that even with an awesome production, if the vocals are done wrong in the slightest degree it can make what could've been a great song into a mediocre song.
I've been recording some of my own material with a producer who owns a amateur studio in a basement. He does a really good job. He gave me a rough mix to take home and listen to and the vocals were extremely faint. So when I went to record with him again I mentioned it and he said he had considerably raised the volume on the vocals. So he gave me the 2nd mix and yet still, I'd took the track home and listened to them on my computer--through AKG headphones, the same as in the studio--and the vocals still sound too quiet.

Anyway, to get to the point, I know that getting the vocals track correct is one of the most vital parts of a good mix. What should I focus on the most while signing to get a good take and is there anything I should make sure to mention to my producer to get the best sound. As far as that I mean, he's been taking 1 to 3 vocal takes per song. Is this enough to get a really good vocal track? Should I tell him I'd rather spend more time on less songs and get more vocal takes?

What other vital (or even trivial) things should I know about recording and mixing vocals that may come into handy to get the best sound?

Thanks!

I have noticed its a very common mistake, especially if the band are producing the demo themselves. The singer will wack the vocals back in the mix, and slap a ton of reverb on the voice. Basically because everyone hates the sound of their own voice.

A lot of the time when you are mixing at home (I have found) you are using headphones, and everything sounds the way its supposed to be, but then you wack on a stereo and the speakers wont be the same quality and you cant hear a damn thing.

Hi, i think, that is not the numbers of takes that the engineer can make, the problem is that the singer maybe don't know use your voice, we can record things and do our tricks and can edit a track voice and maximize and process with everything we've got, but never we can fix a problem of performance.
do the next... get ready a good mix in the headphones and make sure that he's not listening himself too much,he will sing with more power, to listening himself, but always take care of the health of his voice.
Maybe the problem is that he's not comfordable with her voice and is a shy guy.
GOOD LUCK

kasper wrote:

I have noticed its a very common mistake, especially if the band are producing the demo themselves. The singer will wack the vocals back in the mix, and slap a ton of reverb on the voice. Basically because everyone hates the sound of their own voice. A lot of the time when you are mixing at home (I have found) you are using headphones, and everything sounds the way its supposed to be, but then you wack on a stereo and the speakers wont be the same quality and you cant hear a damn thing.

Ha ha... I've heard that before too that "everyone hates the sound of their own voice." That's me sometimes for sure. When me and the producer are mixing he does it mainly on his monitors. Perhaps his room is inaccurate, but his monitors are top-of-the-line. Then when I go home and listen to it on my headphones the vocals sound more faint. Anyhow, I went back in the morning and did a lot better! I asked him to turn up my headphone mix while I sang the song, which seemed to help a whole lot. Also, I was more relaxed this time around, as I'm becoming more accustomed to the atmosphere. So make sure you get the singer the absolute best headphone mix for him or her before you start recording and you'll save a ton of time and get a much better result. Unless the singer just can't sing, which is what I thought my problem was... it still might be, but simply getting a good headphone mix and warming up to the environment has seemed to help.

kasper wrote:

I have noticed its a very common mistake, especially if the band are producing the demo themselves. The singer will wack the vocals back in the mix, and slap a ton of reverb on the voice. Basically because everyone hates the sound of their own voice. A lot of the time when you are mixing at home (I have found) you are using headphones, and everything sounds the way its supposed to be, but then you wack on a stereo and the speakers wont be the same quality and you cant hear a damn thing.

Ha ha... I've heard that before too that "everyone hates the sound of their own voice." That's me sometimes for sure. When me and the producer are mixing he does it mainly on his monitors. Perhaps his room is inaccurate, but his monitors are top-of-the-line. Then when I go home and listen to it on my headphones the vocals sound more faint. Anyhow, I went back in the morning and did a lot better! I asked him to turn up my headphone mix while I sang the song, which seemed to help a whole lot. Also, I was more relaxed this time around, as I'm becoming more accustomed to the atmosphere. So make sure you get the singer the absolute best headphone mix for him or her before you start recording and you'll save a ton of time and get a much better result. Unless the singer just can't sing, which is what I thought my problem was... it still might be, but simply getting a good headphone mix and warming up to the environment has seemed to help.

Yeah exactly...
Drummers always play louder than they need to, guitarists always use more drive than they need, bass players are just over the top (its the little man with a big car syndrome), and singers dont turn theirs up enough.

What I normally do for guitar, is find the sound I like and then reduce the overdrive by 10 %.

Or maybe its just me

Yeah I know what you mean

Turning up the headphones I think tended to get me to sing louder and more confident without particularly realizing it. Louder, but still relaxed... similar to how old people always seem like they're yelling, but don't realize it cause they're def. lol

I really like to hear crystal clear vocal with a little presence (sometimes called air) quite up front in the mix. I have been critcised many times as a producer for haveing this up front vocal mix. Some say that the vocal should blend with the back track. However I have heard releases from famous producers with this up-front vocal mix. I guess it's the same old story, there are no rules, just creativity. But I know what I am looking for in the vocal track, and I dont want it smothered or muddy ata all!

I think experiance tells you when to call it a day with takes. The secret is knowing when you have the best the vocalist can give. If the session is going badly then I start to break the vocal into phrases. If a vocalist does a number of takes on a phrase and it is not happening, then you try some tricks to help them. But if you then do another 10 takes on a phrase and it is still not happening, then is it ever going to happen. With the advent of digital platforms, a lot of vocalists feel that whatever they deliver the engineer or producer should be able to fix it digitaly . That was never the case in the 70's and 80' when the only way to get a great vocal was to deliver it at the mic To a degree that has not changed, the coolest vocal will always come from an artist that just delivers it at the mic in one hit. Ok you can do a few takes (and yes in this situation 3 would be more than enough) but in general the first great take is usually the best.

Comping can work, some say that it will sound unatuaral. I have found that this is not usually true. The fact here is that if the only way you can get a great vocal track is by comping, then the vocalist is struggling right! OK so you have comped the vocal out of the best phrases, but you know that they were just the best of a bad bunch, so, It was never ever going to be a great vocal, get it

I dont think that the vocalist should always make the decision on the content or vocal mix unless they have the experiance to do so. But if they are paying for the session they have the ultimate right to have exactly what they wish.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Jules.

Sometimes rather than just turning up the volume of the singer voice, often times maybe the mistake is that that singer's voice isn't compressed and mixed as well as it could be into the song. Each singers voice is a little bit different and so the mixing and EQ of the singers voice has to be done just right.

julesf wrote:

I really like to hear crystal clear vocal with a little presence (sometimes called air) quite up front in the mix. I have been critcised many times as a producer for haveing this up front vocal mix. Some say that the vocal should blend with the back track. However I have heard releases from famous producers with this up-front vocal mix. I guess it's the same old story, there are no rules, just creativity. But I know what I am looking for in the vocal track, and I dont want it smothered or muddy ata all! I think experiance tells you when to call it a day with takes. The secret is knowing when you have the best the vocalist can give. If the session is going badly then I start to break the vocal into phrases. If a vocalist does a number of takes on a phrase and it is not happening, then you try some tricks to help them. But if you then do another 10 takes on a phrase and it is still not happening, then is it ever going to happen. With the advent of digital platforms, a lot of vocalists feel that whatever they deliver the engineer or producer should be able to fix it digitaly . That was never the case in the 70's and 80' when the only way to get a great vocal was to deliver it at the mic To a degree that has not changed, the coolest vocal will always come from an artist that just delivers it at the mic in one hit. Ok you can do a few takes (and yes in this situation 3 would be more than enough) but in general the first great take is usually the best. Comping can work, some say that it will sound unatuaral. I have found that this is not usually true. The fact here is that if the only way you can get a great vocal track is by comping, then the vocalist is struggling right! OK so you have comped the vocal out of the best phrases, but you know that they were just the best of a bad bunch, so, It was never ever going to be a great vocal, get it I dont think that the vocalist should always make the decision on the content or vocal mix unless they have the experiance to do so. But if they are paying for the session they have the ultimate right to have exactly what they wish. Hope that helps, Cheers, Jules.

Yeah, I like a lot of presence on the vocals too, like at around 4K. My voice has some trouble frequencies at about 8K. So I cut some 4K to 8K on my vocals and then gave the entire song more presence and I think it sounds better. Cause that kinda keeps the overall mix of the vocals in line with the other elements in the song. What do ya think? I always find myself making a gentle hill shape from 1K to 16K with 4K at the peak, when I listen to other people's music through my computer on iTunes or Windows Media Player. I just like it better than way, it seems to makes a song distinct and clear.

Also, I've noticed that I tend to sing within a limited range cause I write my songs that way out of habit. I could go higher and lower and have more variety of notes to make the song more interesting. I was trying to make the lyrics interesting by making them wordy and found out--after I listened to the song the first time--that a few of my songs sounded jittery and overly-wordy as if I stuffed too much into too little of a space for the mood of the song. Clearing up the wording seems to help, it makes it easier to stick in a listeners head as well. Rap is a different story, as that thrives on the bass and the head-bobbing feel, however, my songs are more gentle and smooth, yet I try to cram to many syllables into them. Lol... it works sometimes, like with Jason Maraz and Jack Johnson types of songs, but ya gotta be careful and make sure it works with your song, as I've discovered.

Quote:

Cause that kinda keeps the overall mix of the vocals in line with the other elements in the song. What do ya think? I always find myself making a gentle hill shape from 1K to 16K with 4K at the peak, when I listen to other people's music through my computer on iTunes or Windows Media Player. I just like it better than way, it seems to makes a song distinct and clear.

Yep, same sort of trick as me. I dont tend to raise the level over quite so much of a frequency range but I guess it will vary between different vocalsits and different mic's. When the vocal has that presence then I adjust it in the mix so as it just sit up front, but only just. I agree with the comment regarding compression. I use a little compression in the recording pahase just to control headroom and then compress in the mix too. I am always pleased with my vocals so I tend to stick to the same formula.


Jules.

Last edited by julesf on Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total

Also, singing closer to the microphone helps the song to sound more present or "real" or personal. Not all types of music work off of this "close-up" sound. But I tend to like it the most.

Allenm541 wrote:

Also, singing closer to the microphone helps the song to sound more present or "real" or personal. Not all types of music work off of this "close-up" sound. But I tend to like it the most.

Yeh the proximity effect of most microphones tends to warm the sound, guess it depends on the vocalist and the mic used, and the room too. I always use a vocal booth which solves many issues to enable the best possible result. I learnt from day one, there is no point in spending hard earned cash to buy your dream large diaphram condenser mic, and then using it in the middle of your bedroom without some form of acoustic control. Not unless you want to record passing cars and aircraft. Even with my live (dead) room in the UK which easly keeps out passing aircraft and cars, I have been known to capture the very low frequency rumble of the odd passing Harley However with vocals this low frequency can be filtered out without spoiling the vocal track.

My room can be seen here:

http://www.ourgatestudios.co.uk/live.htm

Cheers,

Jules.

I've read that certain microphones are better at reducing the proximity effect than others. It can be filtered, rolled-off or what not too, yeah. I completely agree with you about room acoustics, though. My current room acoustics aren't excellent, but they're alright. I've been recording in a small isolation booth that's been treated with insulation with a carpet type material over it and then strips of pine wood along that with a carpeted, floating floor. So it's pretty dead, yet the wood strips provide some reflection. It's too small in my opinion... about 4' by 6' Two walls are parallel and two walls are angled. One other thing about the room that is unfortunate is that the ceiling is about exactly as tall as I am -- 6'2" So that's not the best thing, especially since I have to kinda slouch to sing. However, it is almost completely isolated from outside noise, being in a basement in the corner of the building away from a street with the control room on one side of the wall and a storage area on the other. It's not my studio, I've just been recording there.

I took a look at your webpage. What is the silver material on your wall? It looks like metal. I've been singing about 8" closer to the mic than that woman in the picture on your webpage -- it looks almost as if she hardly needs the pop filter at that distance. I'm just guessing, but from the picture she's seems at least 12" away from the microphone. I don't think I'd ever record that far away, unless I had someone who was just screaming at the top of their lungs. For my own vocals I've been singing about 4 to 5 inches away, but for my mellow style of singing, I'm thinking about bringing them closer, even 1 to 2 inches away. Studio Projects makes a good pop filter that is a metal grill shaped like a triangle. It seems to work much better than the nylon fabric pop filters. I've found I can get much closer to condenser mics with it, without too much sibilance.

Hi, Your set up sounds fine, except for the ceiling height You do really need to stand upright to sing properly. I Know how important posture is for singing, I sing and play drums in a live band, man that's a tough call.

Quote:

I took a look at your webpage. What is the silver material on your wall? It looks like metal. I've been singing about 8" closer to the mic than that woman in the picture on your webpage -- it looks almost as if she hardly needs the pop filter at that distance. I'm just guessing, but from the picture she's seems at least 12" away from the microphone. I don't think I'd ever record that far away, unless I had someone who was just screaming at the top of their lungs.

The metal that you see is perforated galvanised metal sheet. It is similar to what you would find in a telephone booth. The wall is battened off and the space fill with 2" of rock wool. The rockwool is covered by a thin plastic film, and the perf sheet is screwed onto the battens. It's quite wierd how transparent the perf sheet is which allows the sound through without reflection. The sound then gets soaked up by the rockwool = dead room

You where very observant regarding the mic set up. Yes Sam is a pretty loud singer, and for the takes that we were doing and the sound that I wanted for the track that set up was good. So what of the pop guard? Well it's psychology really. The vocalist likes to have something to sing at right, yep the mic. I want the vocalist to stay 10" off the mic but they keep creeping forwards singing into the mic. So if I place the pop guard at say 7" off the mic, then the vocalsi will creep in and sing to the popguard and maintain the correct distance. Also bare in mind she was posing for a picture at the time. In the other picture you'll notice thet the pop guard is fairly close to the mic. It's horses for courses, sometimes I want proximity and sometimes I want light and airy. I would rather use different mic's and differant proximity's rather than just reaching for handful's of Eq. Any large diaphram condenser mic should be capable of working well from 2"-12" and beyond for ambient micing. Obviously the further away fom the sound source, the more room ambience will be picked up, which can be good or bad depending on what is required and the quality of the room.

does that make sense?

Jules.